Monday, October 4, 2010

Salmaan Al-Faarsee (2nd ed.)

People in Red are Majhool; and people in Blue are Ghuluww (exaggerator) - Weak

حمدويه بن نصير قال حدثنا أبو الحسين بن نوح قال حدثنا صفوان بن يحيى عن ابن بكير عن زرارة قال سمعت أبا عبد الله (ع) يقول: أدرك سلمان العلم الأول و العلم الآخر و هو بحر لا ينضح و هو منا أهل البيت (ع)
“Salmaan understands the `ilm of the Awwal (First) and `ilm of the aakhir (Last) and he is a sea that doesn’t leak (?), and he is from us, the ahl al-bayt (عليه السلام)
1.     Al-Kashee, Rijaal, pg. 12, hadeeth # 25

This hadeeth SaHeeH

Aboo Al-Hussayn bin NooH is actually Ayyob bin NooH bin Darraaj, who is thiqah (trustworthy)

He narrates from Safwaan (taken from Al-Khoei's Mu`jam):
و عن أبي طالب و ابن أبي عمير و ابن سنان و ابن مسكان و حريز و الحسن بن علي بن فضال و الحسن بن علي الوشاء و الحسن
بن محبوب و الحسين بن عثمان و
صفوان و
And Hamaduwayh narrates from HIM (taken from Al-Khoei's Mu`jam):
و روى عنه أبو جعفر و أبو العباس الرزاز و أحمد بن محمد و أحمد بن محمد بن عبد الله و الحسين بن سعيد و الحسين بن محمد
حمدويه بن نصير و

    جبريل بن أحمد قال حدثني الحسن بن خرزاذ قال حدثني محمد بن علي و علي بن أسباط قالا حدثنا الحكم بن مسكين عن الحسن بن صهيب عن أبي جعفر (ع) قال ذكر عنده سلمان الفارسي فقال أبو جعفر (ع) مه لا تقولوا سلمان الفارسي و لكن قولوا سلمان المحمدي ذلك رجل منا أهل البيت
    Aboo Ja`far (عليه السلام) said: “Do not say Salmaan Al-Faarsee, rather say Salmaan Al-Muhammadee, this man is from us, the ahl al-bayt (عليه السلام).
    1.     Al-Kashee, Rijaal, pg. 12, hadeeth # 26

    نصر بن الصباح و هو غال، قال حدثني إسحاق بن محمد البصري و هو متهم، قال حدثنا أحمد بن هلال، عن علي بن أسباط، عن العلاء، عن محمد بن حكيم، قال ذكر عند أبي جعفر (ع) سلمان، فقال ذلك سلمان المحمدي ، إن سلمان منا أهل البيت،
    Aboo Ja`far (عليه السلام) said: “Do not say Salmaan Al-Faarsee, rather say Salmaan Al-Muhammadee. Verily! Salmaan is from us, the Ahl Al-Bayt (عليه السلام)
    1.     Al-Kashee, Rijaal, pg. 18, hadeeth # 42

    حدثنا محمد بن محمد، قال حدثني أبو القاسم جعفر بن محمد ابن قولويه (رحمه الله)، قال حدثني أبي، عن محمد بن يحيى و أحمد بن إدريس، جميعا عن علي بن محمد بن علي الأشعري، قال حدثنا محمد بن مسلم بن أبي سلمة الكندي السجستاني الأصم، عن أبيه مسلم بن أبي سلمة، عن الحسن بن علي الوشاء، عن محمد بن يوسف، عن منصور بزرج، قال قلت لأبي عبد الله الصادق (عليه السلام) ما أكثر ما أسمع منك يا سيدي ذكر سلمان الفارسي فقال لا تقل الفارسي، و لكن قل سلمان المحمدي،
    So He (عليه السلام) said: “You do not say Al-Faarsee (Salmaan Al-Farsee), rather say Al-Muhammadee”
    1.     Al-Toosi, Al-Amaalee, pg. 133, hadeeth # 27 (of section) # 214 (of the book)


    1. Salam
      means that he is also Masum? because he is a member of Ahlulbayt?

    2. ^ There is an opinion out there that Salman (ra) had Ismaa al Sughraa

    3. was he prohibited from receiving zakat then?

    4. he's not masoom (salman (ra)) and saying : salman is from us ahlbait (as) is like when the prophet said: hussein is from me and here he is not talking about blood relation but about hussein being steadfat upon the way of rasool allah(saww)
      "salaman is from us ahlbayt" means he is upon our way completely.
      as for the word Ahlbayt then the conventional meaning includes brothers and sisters and wives and everybody who lives in the man's house but the quranic sense differs as hadith al-kissa proves that ahlbayt are the people of the cloak as recorded in sunni and shia sahih hadiths apart from few odd ones from a companion who claims rasool allah inclued him in ahlbayt which is a pure lie( i am not accusing the sahabi but the other people in the chains.

    5. I feel like we cannot ASSUME anything about these hadiths, and we cannot interpret them properly, until we know how they are graded. Until then, everything anyone would do, would be nothing but mere guesswork and conjecture.

      So, it's best to wait to know the gradings for these hadiths.

    6. first hadith is sahih
      second is sahih
      third is weak
      fourth is weak

    7. my mistake : the second hadith is also weak

    8. Thank You Wasil,

      This means we cannot be certain whether calling him Salman Al-Muhammadi is correct or not, and when in doubt it's best not to do so.

      Also, we cannot base any of our conclusions any any of these weak hadiths, and the only hadith that is any useful for us is the first one.

    9. yes brother anonymous : what proven is only saying of imam (as) that "salman is from us ahlbayt) but if we want to accept matn of other hadiths then it's not big issue because we muslims can be called muhammadi meaning followers of mohamed (saww) but to say that is specific to salman then it's not proven for now

    10. I have updated the topic, and shown the majhool and weak narrators.

    11. First hadith is sahih and abul hussein ibn nooh is NOT majhool but thiqat and his name is : ayyoob ibn nuh ibn darraj and he's the brother of jameel ibn darraj and he's extremely thiqat.
      najashi said: thiqat and praised him a lot
      sheikh tussi said: thiqat.
      (correction are wecome)

    12. sorry i meant his uncle is jameel ibn darraj not his brother. anyway the man is thiqat.

      second hadith is weak but some considered jibreel ibn ahmed hasan al-hadeeth based on hadas like mamaqani and others but there's no solid tawtheeq of him or praise.
      and also hasan ibn kharzath's ghulu was not proven as najashi said: it was reported so it's just heresay without clear proof and also ibn alwaleed relied on him and didn't avoid him from narrations of mohamed ibn ahmed ibn yahya and also ibn abi umair narrated from him and he only narrates from thiqat. i say his hadith is hasan inshallah.

      anyway this is my opinion and i'm only a fallible man even though i have a talent in rijel walhamdulilleh.

    13. Actually according to Al-Khoei he didn't think of him being "Ayyoob bin NooH bin Daraaj".

      Taken from Al-Khoei's Mu`jam:
      14157 - أبو الحسين بن نوح:
      روى عن صفوان بن يحيى، و روى عنه حمدويه بن نصير، ذكره الكشي في ترجمة سلمان الفارسي الحديث
      - Al-Khoei, Mu`jam Rijaal Al-Hadeeth, vol. 21, pg. 126, person # 14157

      ^^ That is all the information about him, usually Al-Khoei would've said that he is someone else.

      Al-Khoei specifically talks about him being the narrator in Al-kashee's rijaal about the faDaa'il of Salmaan Al-Faarsee. And that he narrated from Safwaan and narrated to Hamaduwayh.

      Wallaahu A`lim.

    14. Actually, I take my statements back.

      Aboo Al-Hussayn bin NooH = Ayyob bin NooH bin Darraaj.

      He narrates from Safwaan (according to Al-Khoei's Mu`jam):
      و عن أبي طالب و ابن أبي عمير و ابن سنان و ابن مسكان و حريز و الحسن بن علي بن فضال و الحسن بن علي الوشاء و الحسن
      بن محبوب و الحسين بن عثمان و صفوان و
      And he narrates TO Hamadawayh (according to Al-Khoei's Mu`jam):
      و روى عنه أبو جعفر و أبو العباس الرزاز و أحمد بن محمد و أحمد بن محمد بن عبد الله و الحسين بن سعيد و الحسين بن محمد
      و حمدويه بن نصير و

      Based off of that, this hadeeth is SaHeeH.

    15. Actually according to Al-Hasan bin Kharzaaz is considered ghuluww.

      Here is what Al-Khoei has said concerning the statemens of ibn Waleed's relying on him.

      أن اعتماد ابن الوليد، إن ثبت، فهو لا يدل على التوثيق.

      And concerning Al-Najaashee's statement of of him saying some people said he turned ghuluww at the end of his life, he doesn't go against this actually. Look at what is said in Al-Najaashee's rijaal book.

      و قيل: إنه غلا في آخر عمره، أخبرنا محمد بن محمد

      As you can see, he never said that "he didn't think so" or that "he never saw it in his narrations". If he didn't, he would have mentioned it, just like he mentioned that he didn't see any ghuluww in Al-Nawfalee's narration.

    16. salam

      al-khoei is entitled to his opinion but sheikh ibn alwaleed is from mutaqaddimeen and he was extremely opposed to ghulat so his reliance on this man shows his relibale according to him and also ibn abi umair narration from him adds more weight to tawtheeq of the man. as for najashi satement then it's from majaheel:" و قيل"

    17. al-khoei (ra) made many mistakes in his mo'jam and it's well-known that he changed his view about many things he said in mo'jam , still the work is very good without a doubt.

      some of sayed al-khoei mistakes :

      -reliance on tafseer al-qommi ( but he changed his mind later)
      -negligence of ibn ghadhari views
      -negligence of signs of tawtheeq like taradhi sadooq and excessive reliance of the pillars of tashayu upon a narrator.
      -tawtheeq of ghulat

      etc etc

    18. Salamu Alaikom

      Excellent work brothers.

      I love seeing such analytical examination of traditions. It is always comforting to know that there are sincere religiously educated individuals like yourselves out there, who closely examine our traditions.

      God Bless You Both

    19. jazakallah khairan brother

      we try our best

    20. salam again

      i did some research and yes hurr al-amili(ts) had a tareeq sahih to tabrassi and the latter had sahih tareeq to all books of sheikh tussi and his narrations so some might consider this hadith sahih if they agree with najashi about trustworthiness of khalaf ibn hammad and some might reject it if they agree with ibn ghadhairi(rah)
      anyway here's the isnad or tareeq from shaheed thani (to whom hurr alamili had a well-known sahih tareeq ) to sheikh tusi and it goes through tabrassi ( mohamed ibn al-hasan al-tabrassi) and he's found towards the end of sanad(tareeq):

      وبالأسانيد :
      عن الشهيد الثاني ، عن شيخه ؛ الفاضل ؛ عليّ بن
      لم يرد في الأصل إلى هنا ، من محل النجمة السابقة ، في الطريق
      عبد العالي ؛ العاملي ؛ الميسيّ ، عن الشيخ ؛ شمس الدين ؛ محمد بن داود ؛ المؤذن ؛ العاملي ؛ الجزيني :
      عن الشيخ ؛ ضياء الدين ؛ علي بن الشهيد ؛ محمد بن مكيّ ؛ العاملي ، عن والده :
      عن الشيخ ؛ فخر الدين ؛ محمد ؛ ولد الشيخ ؛ العلامة ، جمال الدين ؛ الحسن بن يوسف بن المطهر ؛ الحلي :
      عن والده .
      عن شيخه ؛ المحقق ؛ نجم الدين ؛ أبي القاسم ؛ جعفر بن الحسن بن سعيد ؛ الحلي :
      عن السيد ؛ الجليل ؛ شمس الدين ؛ فخار بن معد ؛ الموسوي :
      عن الشيخ ؛ الفقيه ؛ أبي الفضل ؛ شاذان بن جبرئيل ؛ القمي :
      عن الشيخ ؛ عماد الدين ؛ محمد بن أبي القاسم ؛ الطبري :
      عن الشيخ ؛ أبي علي ؛ الحسن بن الشيخ ؛ الجليل ؛ أبي جعفر ؛ محمد بن الحسن ؛ الطوسي ؛
      عن والده .
      [ الطريق المتم للعشرين ]
      وبالإسناد السابق عن الشهيد ؛ محمد بن مكي ؛ العاملي :
      عن السيد ؛ شمس الدين ؛ محمد بن أبي المعالي :
      عن الشيخ ؛ نجيب الدين ؛ يحيى بن سعيد :
      عن السيد ؛ محيى الدين ، محمد بن عبدالله بن علي بن زهرة ؛ الحسيني ؛ الحلبيّ :
      عن الشيخ ؛ السعيد ؛ رشيد الدين ؛ محمد بن علي بن شهرآشوب ، المازندراني :
      عن أبيه :
      و لداعي بن عليّ ؛ الحسيني :
      و فضل الله بن عليّ ؛ الحسيني ؛ الراوندي :
      و عبد الجليل بن عيسى ؛ الرازي :
      و محمد :
      و علي ؛ ابني عبد الصمد النيسابوري :
      و أحمد بن علي الرازي :
      و محمد بن الحسن ؛ الشوهاني :
      و أبي عليّ ؛ الفضل بن الحسن ؛ الطبرسي :
      و محمد بن علي بن الحسن ؛ الحلبي :
      و مسعود بن علي ؛ الصوابي :
      و الحسين بن أحمد بن طحال ؛ المقدادي :
      كلهم :
      عن الشيخين ؛ أبي عليّ ؛ الحسن بن محمد بن الحسن ؛ الطوسي :
      و أبي الوفاء ؛ عبد الجبار بن عليّ ؛ المقريء ، عن الشيخ أبي جعفر ؛ محمد بن الحسن ؛ الطوسي ) ـ قدس الله أرواحهم ـ .
      بأسانيده ؛ المذكورة سابقا ، إلى كلّ مَنْ روى عنه .

      wallahu ajallu wa alam

    21. yes i checked and sheikh al-hurr al amili (ts) had sahih tareeq to tusi going through tabarssi(mohamed ibn alhasan ) and tusi had sahih tareeq to khalaf ibn hammad so the hadith authenticity depends on how we view hammad : najashi said thiqat and ibn ghadhairi weakened him. i tend to agree with ibn ghadhairi if the tawtheeq of najashi is without support from shuyukh al-taifah but others might differ.
      any opinion is welcome


    22. oops posted in the wrong section :

      brother nader please delete the last two comments of mine as i thought i was commenting on an other article.